25 [21:01:46] <valentin_> so it's 8pm, lets start
	32 [21:02:22] kalhaan nods
	25 [21:02:27] <valentin_> first probably lets do a little presentation of each others, were he/she come here from and with what goals in mind
	20 [21:03:18] !nshinobi [n=shinobi@!hone.crao.net] has joined !c#ryzom.org
	25 [21:03:30] <valentin_> i'm from VCA, one of those who tried to buy ryzom, i'm here to enable teams to build worlds, with gpl software
	25 [21:04:41] <valentin_> anybody here ?
	24 [21:04:50] <kalhaan> yep, I'm listening ;p
	25 [21:04:55] <daraknor> yes :) was waiting my turn.
	24 [21:05:01] <kalhaan> (Xavier here, btw)
	32 [21:05:09] !nshinobi is also listening
	32 [21:05:17] !nYorzian open his ears
	25 [21:05:23] <KrYoS> had to run check on the kid. :(
	25 [21:05:46] <shinobi> KrYoS: I also have to check on my daughter :;)
	25 [21:06:27] <eterry> Hi, I'm Edward. I'm not a programmer but hope to contribute in other ways.
	25 [21:06:27] <valentin_> well maybe another start then, who has read the project angela pdf ?
	25 [21:06:47] <Cayle> here
	25 [21:07:00] <shinobi> sorry, no time since your phone call this morning
	25 [21:07:09] <Cayle> was on the phone. wife calling from immiigration desk in Bangalore
	24 [21:07:17] <kalhaan> Valentin> Seems like you are the designated moderator, you're trapped, you'll have to give turns ;p
	25 [21:07:21] <eterry> I read it. I think it provides a good starting point.
	25 [21:07:34] <Yorzian> I have to read it
	25 [21:07:38] <Cayle> I should add a couple of caveats
	25 [21:07:59] <daraknor> I have only read a few forum threads and a call for support, I found you through a google search looking for Planeshift Engine information aside from the SourceForge files
	25 [21:08:10] <Cayle> 1- it is out of date. we are currently planning on running only the SIQ in a seperate thread
	25 [21:08:20] <KrYoS> I'm me obviously, I crawled in from my own little corner of the mythical universe inside my head to pop in and see what can pike my interest. Yes, I seem a bit off in my explanations, but overall, I like the entertainment it brings as it helps lighten the mood everyone has towards you. I come here mainly to see what the table has to offer to further enhance my long term goals that I haven't discovered yet. And to help out in ways that I didn
	25 [21:08:45] <Cayle> 2- it was written under the assumption of no help beyond moral support from the PScrew and a fork would be needed
	25 [21:08:57] <KrYoS> And to try new methods of doing different things, as everyone has an idea on how to do something, but generally only one or two have a way to do it a way that is more efficient than none have thought of before.
	25 [21:09:37] <Cayle> KrYoS, you just told Mor you already ruled the universe :P
	25 [21:09:53] <daraknor> I'm a programmer by trade, and have an interest in AI and automation. Most of the code I write these days is financial trading automation with some elements of AI. I'm a systems theorist by philosophy, and want to build a real "intelligent AI" that qualifies as an Artificial Life simulation.
	25 [21:10:04] <KrYoS> Cayle, they don't know that. Now sssshhhh... let everyone speak.
	25 [21:11:06] <Cayle> the Angela PDF: http://www.rpg-gamerz.com/documents/From WorldToMetaverse.pdf
	25 [21:11:15] <daraknor> I'm torn between making a MUD AI, an AI for Planeshift, joining some company or project, or something I can brand and sell as an AI component.
	24 [21:11:31] <kalhaan> I'm also from VCA, and while I don't consider myself as a developer, I'm here to see if and how I can help.
	32 [21:11:33] !nshinobi is reading the PA paper ...
	25 [21:12:25] <valentin_> i'd add to the pdf ; 1) having a running reference shard , 2) building a data asset for it
	25 [21:13:01] <shinobi> !nYorzian and I, just like Valentin, are here to enable people to create worlds and connect them together ... to build the bootstrap for the multiverse.
	20 [21:13:11] !nRyzom062 [n=47fcde0e@!hns30473.ovh.net] has joined !c#ryzom.org
	25 [21:13:17] <Cayle> I explitely said that was out of the scope of the document. It is certainly not out of the scope of the project, but I felt it deserved its own document
	20 [21:13:49] !nmithrus [n=jason@!h74-136-192-147.dhcp.insightbb .com] has joined !c#ryzom.org
	34 [21:14:04] !nRyzom062 [n=47fcde0e@!hns30473.ovh.net] has quit IRC: Client Quit
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	25 [21:15:03] <KrYoS> And there is Mor.
	25 [21:15:15] <Morrighu> ola all
	24 [21:15:21] <kalhaan> hello ;p
	25 [21:15:23] <shinobi> Aloah
	25 [21:15:50] <Yorzian> Hi
	25 [21:15:55] <valentin_> the document and additions is precise enough to know were we are going without a doubt, but are we enough to pull it off, filling all the needed work
	25 [21:15:56] <Cayle> hi
	25 [21:16:08] <valentin_> hi
	25 [21:17:07] <daraknor> I just finished reading PA, what was the intention of having "high quality AI" included?
	25 [21:17:43] <Cayle> *takes a deep breath*
	25 [21:18:02] <daraknor> pathfinding + AI metascripting or a lot more?
	25 [21:18:02] <Cayle> well... I was thinking of machine learning
	25 [21:18:15] <Cayle> A* without a doubt
	25 [21:18:32] <Cayle> but I have worked with hand scripted AI quite a bit and find it lacking
	25 [21:19:13] <Cayle> Ideally, you would be able to scale challenges for players in terms of AI, not just powers
	25 [21:19:26] <daraknor> *nod* the methods are directly related not only the game engine and rules, but often the skills/abilities of each NPC
	25 [21:19:41] <Cayle> aye
	25 [21:20:05] <Morrighu> part of this is not have the designers be limited by the capabilities of the engine
	25 [21:20:35] <daraknor> my documented focused primarily on World/Agent AI. A combat AI needs a few things in order to be "conditionally aware"
	25 [21:21:01] <daraknor> Does anyone know if the Planeshift engine can be extended to allow collission detection so people can't run through each other?
	25 [21:21:19] <Cayle> it can
	25 [21:21:30] <Cayle> it uses ODE, so it can
	25 [21:21:52] <Cayle> it may be turned off for anti.greifing reasons. Luca can answer that
	32 [21:21:56] !nshinobi just finished the PA paper ...
	25 [21:22:17] <daraknor> i will be thrilled when i play a game and dense objects sink :) oh look, metal armor sinks! wood shield floats! *falls over*
	25 [21:22:54] <shinobi> never seen a full plate warrior swiming, !ndaraknor ? ;)
	25 [21:23:18] <daraknor> Never tried when I wore full plate. It was hard enough to swim in pants.
	25 [21:23:24] <shinobi> lol
	25 [21:23:46] <Yorzian> :)
	25 [21:24:39] <Morrighu> my favorite is still the pixies with flaming greatswords
	25 [21:25:22] <valentin_> so, what do we need to fill the pdf plan ?
	25 [21:25:40] <Talad> Hi
	25 [21:25:45] <Talad> sorry for the delay
	25 [21:25:45] <valentin_> hi
	25 [21:25:50] <shinobi> 'lo
	24 [21:25:52] <kalhaan> Hello
	25 [21:25:55] <Morrighu> ola
	25 [21:26:00] <Yorzian> Hi
	25 [21:26:10] <daraknor> I was looking through the server CVS of Planeshift. I think finding people to document what parts need separation and work on the server side would be ideal
	25 [21:27:20] <daraknor> assessment of labor sounds like something you have already done with the document, but we would need to communicate what needs to be done on a folder by folder basis and then experts look at a file by file basis
	25 [21:27:33] <Talad> good evening/afternoob everyone
	25 [21:27:39] <Talad> eh, *afternoon
	20 [21:27:43] !nropoctl [n=ropoctl@!hppp-70-225-165-177.dsl.chmp il.ameritech.net] has joined !c#ryzom.org
	25 [21:27:50] <ropoctl> there a meeting here?
	25 [21:27:53] <Cayle> good evening/afternoon
	25 [21:27:56] <valentin_> !ntalad proposed to make a short presentation of planeshift, should be a good idea as not everyone here is correctly documented
	25 [21:28:01] <shinobi> yes !nropoctl
	25 [21:28:02] <daraknor> It sounds like the action, physics, simulus and AI systems at the very least all need to be reworked or rewritten
	25 [21:28:14] <Talad> ok, I read the log above and I read the powerpoint presentation
	25 [21:28:21] <ropoctl> well im from aurora b
	25 [21:28:22] <Cayle> physics is provided by ODE
	25 [21:28:40] <daraknor> physics as implemented, not physics as written :/
	25 [21:28:46] <Talad> but before going into that I would like to present PlaneShift project, our goals, inspiration and finally why I'm here
	25 [21:28:58] <Cayle> *all ears*
	32 [21:29:07] !nshinobi is listenning
	25 [21:29:11] <daraknor> Like a generic event trigger check that allows someone to turn on/off collision detection with a single line of code
	32 [21:29:19] !ndaraknor listens
	25 [21:29:21] <Talad> then we can go more deeply into the discussion of what you would like to do and have questions/answers
	25 [21:29:29] <Talad> does that sound ok?
	25 [21:29:35] <shinobi> great !nTalad
	24 [21:29:37] <kalhaan> sure
	25 [21:29:44] <Morrighu> fine by me
	25 [21:29:58] <Talad> Ok, I will try to be as concise as possible, but still will take some time
	25 [21:30:16] <Talad> I'm Luca, founder and project leader of PlaneShift mmorpg
	25 [21:30:57] <Talad> I can say that after many years of work in this field I have some pretty clear ideas and plans on how to move forward in making a mmorpg, or at least to make its basics
	25 [21:31:09] <Talad> everything started long time ago, I always wanted to make an online RPG
	25 [21:31:29] <Talad> the current PlaneShift 3D is the new version of an older projects, PlaneShift 2D, started in 1992
	25 [21:31:47] <Talad> as you see long time has passed, and many different projects, organizational models, tries and failures
	25 [21:32:16] <Talad> with the 3D version I've collected my experiences and started with a new paradigm
	25 [21:32:33] <Talad> open source engine, proprietary art/assets
	20 [21:32:35] !ngrommashpl [n=grom@!h80.50.252.66] has joined !c#ryzom.org
	25 [21:32:52] <Talad> hi !ngrommashpl , we are going through a brief presentation of PS
	25 [21:33:03] <grommashpl> hi
	25 [21:33:19] <Talad> my main goal at the moment is to produce a fully functional, good quality, free mmorpg
	25 [21:33:38] <Talad> the bad side of this is that none managed to do it until now
	25 [21:33:44] <grommashpl> but PLaneshift need good, strong leader
	25 [21:33:54] <grommashpl> he have many programmers but no lead
	25 [21:34:10] <Talad> grommashpl: well, I'm the PS leader :)
	25 [21:34:26] <valentin_> oups ;)
	24 [21:34:29] <kalhaan> ;p
	25 [21:34:33] <grommashpl> how programmers do you have?
	25 [21:34:46] <Talad> [questions after this short presentation]
	25 [21:35:15] <Talad> I say that none managed to do it, because if you look at the projects our there, you can basically split them in 3 categories:
	25 [21:35:38] <Talad> 1) projects that are functionally dead, maybe not officially dead, but not good enough to proceed
	25 [21:35:54] <Talad> 2) projects that just started, and will probably go into category 1 in few years
	25 [21:36:04] <Talad> 3) projects that decided to turn commercial
	25 [21:36:15] <Talad> we want to be the exception that confirms the rule
	25 [21:36:17] <grommashpl> I think PLaneshift is very slow and crashes in my machine. It requied 512 mb ram. WoW need only 128mb minial
	25 [21:36:45] <grommashpl> *minimal
	25 [21:36:54] <Talad> meaning a free, non commercial project, aimed to have a large user base
	25 [21:37:18] <Talad> grommashpl: will be kinf of you to keep questions comments after presentation
	25 [21:37:26] <grommashpl> ok, sorry
	25 [21:37:51] <Talad> currently planeshift has 330.000 registered users
	25 [21:38:06] <Talad> and about 150-200 concurrent users as an average
	25 [21:38:34] <Talad> those numbers grow every day and surely those numbers tell me we are doing something in the right way
	25 [21:39:10] <Talad> PlaneShift has about 20 core developers, that work often on the project. All are talented professionals.
	25 [21:39:24] <Talad> many others are just contributors, and are not counted in the team
	25 [21:39:34] <Talad> just to avoid saying numbers that are not real
	25 [21:39:46] <Talad> the resources needed for a REAL mmorpg are a lot more than this
	25 [21:40:36] <Talad> just to link to grommash comments, WoW has 90 people just to add quests and some content, not to speak of engine developers, support, webmasters, retailers, marketing, press relationship
	25 [21:41:01] <Talad> in this scenario is obvious that make one fully functional mmorpg is not something easy
	25 [21:41:33] <Talad> I know you already realized that, I'm not saying you don't. Just I want to stress the point that the chances PlaneShift will succeed are very thin
	25 [21:41:52] <Talad> and we are probably the most promising project out there atm
	25 [21:42:27] <Talad> I say the chances are thin because I see the requirements of man power, focus, consistency and knowledge needed
	25 [21:42:38] <Talad> a mmorpg will never be made by a group of friends that want to make a game
	25 [21:42:45] <Talad> they can create maybe 1 level of it
	25 [21:42:49] <Talad> but never a full game
	25 [21:43:08] <Talad> one methaphore I use often is this one:
	25 [21:43:39] <Talad> we sometimes reach the top of a mountain just to discover was an hill or a vast scenario we didn't see before
	25 [21:43:52] <Talad> and that's happening quite often
	25 [21:44:00] <Talad> when you think the base is done, it's not
	25 [21:44:12] <Talad> ... going back on track with my presentation
	25 [21:44:49] <Talad> PlaneShift is based on Crystal Space, one of the most friendly engines out there, we have direct contact with devs, their leader sits in our channel most of the time, we plan features together
	25 [21:45:10] <Talad> are two separate teams, but synergy is very strong
	25 [21:45:17] <Talad> that's very powerful for us, and for them
	25 [21:45:29] <Talad> we use CEL, a CS entity layer
	25 [21:45:51] <Talad> we use CAL3D as animation engine (we will probably use in the future the CS native skeletal plugin)
	25 [21:46:05] <Talad> what I can say is that what we have built seems to work.
	25 [21:46:17] <Talad> we have a very wide community of players and devs
	25 [21:46:29] <Talad> everyone is betting we will not make it, but at the same time they play PS :)
	25 [21:47:06] <Talad> the organization is quite structured, with director, leaders, members, contributors
	25 [21:47:21] <Talad> we have developed internal tools to track tasks, deadlines, documents, prospects
	25 [21:47:56] <Talad> has been a huge work, if you ask me
	25 [21:48:21] <Talad> the project started at end of 2000, where the first year was mainly organizing
	25 [21:48:24] <Talad> and team building
	25 [21:48:46] <Talad> so we have about 5 years of development, without considering the assets we got from the previous 2d project
	25 [21:48:53] <Talad> ----
	25 [21:49:20] <Talad> ok, I will stop here for project presentation, because I want also to hear your comments... I will just go briefly on why I'm here
	25 [21:49:31] <Talad> then we open up for discussion
	25 [21:49:32] <Cayle> can I go first?
	25 [21:49:41] <Talad> in a sec
	25 [21:49:54] <Talad> the reason I'm here is because I'm sick of seeing projects dying.
	25 [21:50:12] <Talad> and of seeing peoples hopes destroyed
	25 [21:50:28] <Talad> I know everyone has in mind the perfect game, the perfect engine, the perfect engine
	25 [21:50:36] <Talad> *setting
	25 [21:51:06] <Talad> but before creating multiple games, I would like to see ONE damn free mmorpg fully completed and enjoyable by players
	25 [21:51:18] <Talad> and I'm striving for this
	25 [21:51:51] <Talad> so the reason I'm here is to communicate that PlaneShift is searching people to join our venture into making this first game possible and real
	25 [21:52:05] <Talad> where real means: thousands of players connected, a full world.
	25 [21:52:35] <Cayle> why do worlds have to be massive?
	25 [21:52:39] <Talad> I search people that have the same vision, trying to convince them not to split forces.
	25 [21:52:45] <Cayle> I came from the NWN persistent world community becasue I outgrew the platform and wanted to do things it could not. There are many successful small scale worlds with loyal playerbases.
	25 [21:52:45] <Talad> ok, enough speaking on my side
	25 [21:52:57] <Cayle> Why must we recreate WoW?
	25 [21:53:02] <Talad> thanks for listening
	32 [21:53:03] kalhaan asks for second turn
	25 [21:53:25] <Talad> Cayle, because WoW is not open, is nto free, and we cannot add to it what we want
	25 [21:53:31] <Morrighu> we're not looking to be an MMORPG, we're looking to be an MORPG
	25 [21:53:42] <Cayle> There is a whole community of players ons world builders, searching for a better platform to do what they already do
	25 [21:54:14] <Talad> Cayle: right, NWN is not open enough to changes
	25 [21:54:21] <Cayle> exactly
	25 [21:54:38] <Cayle> but it supports a thriving community of small worlds
	25 [21:54:45] <Talad> it's mainly a matter of goals
	24 [21:54:49] <kalhaan> Talad, I think you forgot one essential piece in your presentation: that only the server code is free in Planeshift. All game rules and artwork is proprietary.
	25 [21:55:00] <Cayle> Planeshift has a user population equal to the three largest NWN worlds combined
	25 [21:55:27] <Talad> <Talad> open source engine, proprietary art/assets
	2 [21:55:39] <Talad> was at the start of the presentation !nkalhaan
	25 [21:55:53] <daraknor> i'd like 3rd turn on asking questions
	25 [21:55:55] <grommashpl> Cayle: PLaneshift is a MMORPG not Multiplayer game like NWN
	25 [21:56:40] <Talad> right , we are making a MMORPG, and we strongly believe that "massive" is important, due to possibilitiies in guilds, player economy, alliances, players creating world pieces, etc...
	24 [21:56:43] <kalhaan> Alright, but then you can't say you're building a Free (as in Freedom) MMORPG; only that it is Free as in free beer
	25 [21:56:48] <daraknor> grommashpl, NWN world builders have done everything they can to push that envelope.
	25 [21:57:06] <Cayle> grom. it has been modeed to support persistent worlds. it has a multiplayer limit (among other limitations), but my pount is that there is a yearning for a platform for small worlds
	24 [21:57:12] <kalhaan> I can't start my own Planeshift shard, for example
	25 [21:57:17] <valentin_> how do you feel about other teams using planeshift platform to build other world
	2 [21:57:18] <Talad> kalhaan, yes we don't like the "everything should be open" paradigm
	25 [21:57:21] <valentin_> s based on different art/rules ? (everyone may not be interested by a mediaval f
	25 [21:57:24] <valentin_> antasy world, this not being splitting forces but sharing wider interests)
	25 [21:57:25] <Morrighu> and not just among the NWN community
	25 [21:57:32] <Morrighu> there are others out there too
	25 [21:57:35] <Talad> because we know it can be spoiled too easily
	25 [21:57:59] <Talad> kalhann, yes this is to protect the growth of PS.
	25 [21:58:13] <Talad> when PS will be completed, we can evaluate to make it really open
	25 [21:58:27] <daraknor> Talad, I'm interested in the Game Engine, and don't mind the art assets being proprietary. however, the game engine itself is no longer available for download, doesn't appear to have any documention on website, and the SF project is ... limited to be kind.
	25 [21:58:31] <Talad> but until then, I don't want to weaken our structure and lower chances of success
	24 [21:58:39] <kalhaan> Talad> Spoil is one thing, but art can't be spoiled by copying it
	25 [21:58:59] <Yorzian> Ok, but being able of having it's own shard doesn't spoil the PS scenario, since it can have its own scenario/art...
	25 [21:59:03] <Talad> daraknor: ? the code is available in SF with CVS access
	25 [21:59:06] <Morrighu> i don't care if they want to keep their assets
	25 [21:59:16] <daraknor> Talad, where is the documentation?
	25 [21:59:24] <Morrighu> the idea is that you have the freedom to come up with your own
	25 [21:59:27] <grommashpl> STOP, Maybe one question and one answer plz
	25 [21:59:29] <Talad> Yorzian, I will explain how it can be a problem
	25 [21:59:35] <Morrighu> the issue is that most cannot
	25 [21:59:53] <Talad> forks and shard are the first way to split resources
	25 [22:00:00] <Talad> it's the problem of Linux
	25 [22:00:10] <Talad> they have so many distros that none is really good
	25 [22:00:24] <Talad> if only they could reduce a bit the number, we will have a lot higher quality
	25 [22:00:29] <daraknor> Forks are the problem of BSD. Distros are different.
	25 [22:00:40] <Talad> obviously the above is a simplification, but I think it gives the point of view on forks
	25 [22:00:42] <daraknor> BSD has 5 major kernels.
	24 [22:00:49] <kalhaan> Talad> I'd be happy to see that happening, but until then, please specify that Planeshift has a Free Software code, but a proprietary universe. I think this distinction is important...
	2 [22:01:08] <Talad> kalhaan: is everywhere on our site, and I explained it here
	25 [22:01:14] <valentin_> talad, if there is an initiative now to help other teams using planeshift code, would you support it ?
	25 [22:01:16] <Talad> I can say it again if needed :)
	25 [22:01:43] <Talad> valentin_: that's a second choice for us
	25 [22:02:08] <Talad> meaning that the chances we will succeed are already very small, so we don't think forks have any chances
	25 [22:02:19] <Talad> it's not to be harsh, is to be realistic
	25 [22:02:27] <daraknor> I'd like to contribute AI to Planeshift and fill the open role. I couldn't find out if the server code was in the vaguest way compatible with what I'm building and what I want to build.
	25 [22:02:32] <valentin_> i'm not speaking of forking but of preventing it
	25 [22:02:33] <Yorzian> but everyone is not interested in the same things, as said by !nvalentin_ before
	25 [22:02:38] <Talad> I have friends in many other projects that failed and I bleed when I see that happening over and over
	25 [22:03:33] <Talad> Yorzian: well, if you are interested in a free mmorpg, we are the most similar project
	25 [22:03:35] <daraknor> I agree with !nTalad philosophically regarding Forks = Failure, but some parts can and should be forked while other parts should be standardized. The game worlds should run on the same engine. They should use the same API. The art assets and NPC content should be unique.
	25 [22:03:45] <Talad> with the highest % of success
	25 [22:03:52] <Talad> still quite low, in my opinion
	25 [22:04:00] <Morrighu> if you think your chances of success are so poor, why not consider changing your model?
	25 [22:04:01] <Talad> I can make examples
	25 [22:04:41] <Talad> Morrighu: probably I didn't express myself well. Our chances of success are the best ones compared to other projects, but still very low overall
	25 [22:04:54] <Morrighu> and that is precisely my point
	25 [22:05:00] <Talad> because making a fully working mmorpg is really complex
	25 [22:05:11] <Talad> our model is the best one imo
	25 [22:05:19] <valentin_> i do understand the proposition we can make today cannot be taken seriously because so much projet are DOA, but will we have planeshift blessing for trying ?
	25 [22:05:29] <Morrighu> if you think your odds are so low, why not change to something that might be more successful, since the commercial guys have proven that it works?
	25 [22:05:32] <Talad> an completely open model will just fail, like it did for Once, just to make an example
	25 [22:05:33] <daraknor> What about your example of GNU/Linux? It is the most successful open source project to date in terms of adoption, stability and speed. The kernel is not forked, the utilities are selected by the distributions. A similar model may benefit planeshift as well.
	25 [22:05:48] <Yorzian> yes, it's the most similar project, but I think (it's only my opinion), we should work on a common engine that permit to have different universes, some free, some proprietary as in PS, and the possibility to go from one to another
	25 [22:05:50] <Talad> Morrighu: we don't want to be commercial
	25 [22:05:56] <Morrighu> exactly, !ndaraknor
	25 [22:06:02] <Morrighu> i never said you did
	25 [22:06:08] <Morrighu> i said that their PW model works
	32 [22:06:17] kalhaan agrees with !nYorzian
	25 [22:06:34] <Morrighu> *second that!
	25 [22:06:43] <Talad> darkanor: exactly! and why? there was one guy called Linus that guided people into a single path
	25 [22:06:47] <Talad> and he made it
	25 [22:07:04] <daraknor> He also knew what should be standardized and what should be open.
	25 [22:07:08] <Talad> only having people under a common hat, will make the first step possible
	25 [22:07:14] <daraknor> he standardized the driver model. He opened the boot loader.
	25 [22:07:18] <Talad> when the first step is done, forking will be possible, but not now
	25 [22:07:19] <Cayle> the problem is that an OS is not about fun
	25 [22:07:24] <Morrighu> you've said yourself your engine, as it sits, is only suitable for your world
	25 [22:07:32] <Cayle> my definition of fun is different than others
	25 [22:07:35] <Morrighu> so why not let other people build worlds on your engine
	25 [22:07:42] <Cayle> what she said
	24 [22:07:44] <kalhaan> Talad> What Linus was doing was all FS, we are not talking about the same thing here...
	25 [22:07:49] <Talad> Yorzian: are you aware of what means creating one universe?
	25 [22:08:00] <valentin_> talad, by forking do you mean using the engin for other art/ruleset ?
	25 [22:08:07] <Morrighu> that will attact more people to your engine
	25 [22:08:13] <Talad> in terms of musicians, artists, concepts, setting, text, etc...
	25 [22:08:20] <Talad> it's huge
	25 [22:08:20] <Morrighu> instead of forcing them to build PS
	25 [22:08:45] <Talad> Morrighy: I never said our engine only suit our world
	25 [22:09:13] <Talad> I can say that a world is more then enough at the moment to build :)
	25 [22:09:29] <Morrighu> no, what i'm hearing is a "you must be assimiliated" speech or we can't do anything
	25 [22:09:32] <shinobi> Talad: I used to play NWN and created a few small mods ... from this experience I can say that with a good bag of "bricks" you can easilly create a playable universe ...
	25 [22:09:32] <ropoctl> so why don't we just work on making libre assets to use with the gpl parts of planeshift
	25 [22:09:50] <Talad> valentin_: by forking I mean any attempt to create a different codebase, so resources will be splitted and developers cannot work together
	25 [22:09:54] <Talad> engine side and art side
	25 [22:09:57] <Morrighu> because many of their rules, etc. are written into the engine
	25 [22:10:11] <shinobi> so we don"t only need a free engine, we also need free "basic" arts, rule set, etc
	25 [22:10:12] <daraknor> I have two major fundamental questions for Talad. The first is, "Can my AI design work with Planeshift Engine?" I was unable to discover this myself due to the somewhat closed nature of the open source. Second, "What do you gain by keeping the server architecture closed?"
	25 [22:10:13] <Talad> shinobi: NWN is a commercial product
	25 [22:10:22] <shinobi> so ?
	25 [22:10:25] <Talad> try to build NWN with a team
	24 [22:10:27] <kalhaan> Talad> Sure, but why don't try to see what could be gained from having different people, who would build their own world anyway, and not PS, gather on the PS engine?
	25 [22:10:28] <ropoctl> the engine is not gpl then?
	25 [22:10:30] <shinobi> talking about the way it worked
	25 [22:10:31] <Talad> so we cannot use it
	25 [22:10:41] <Talad> we cannot add what we want to it
	2 [22:11:07] <Talad> kalhaan: yes, this is a possible second choice, but still very painful to me
	25 [22:11:14] <daraknor> The engine is GPL but that is only a small part of being "open"
	25 [22:11:19] <shinobi> the fact was : you have some bricks to play with
	25 [22:11:24] <Talad> what's the point of building a different universe, when not even one is completed?
	25 [22:11:26] <daraknor> part of the engine is LGPL
	25 [22:11:40] <Morrighu> maybe we don't like your world
	25 [22:11:41] <ropoctl> ah
	25 [22:11:42] <Talad> the 3d engine is LGPL
	25 [22:11:46] <Talad> crystal space
	25 [22:11:49] <ropoctl> oh well i knew that
	25 [22:11:56] <Talad> LGPL gives you more freedome than GPL
	25 [22:11:58] <Morrighu> *grin* I reject your PW and subsitute my own
	25 [22:11:58] <valentin_> the point is this particular universe is not appealing for some, as vegastrike sci-fi world for example
	24 [22:11:59] <kalhaan> Talad> Agreed, but we have to find a middle way between what everyone wants; obviously, if we wanted to develop on PS, we would already doing it
	25 [22:12:08] <ropoctl> so fork the engine and make our own assets
	25 [22:12:36] <Talad> I would like to ask why you want to make a different game. what will be different compared to PlaneShift?
	25 [22:12:39] <daraknor> Talad, I want PvP. I want Sieges. Your design spec is completely opposed to this. Would you want me to get a team of people together and start hacking the Planeshift content/code? It doesn't sound like our applications would be accepted to be team members.
	25 [22:12:45] <Talad> aren't our objectives the same?
	25 [22:12:59] <daraknor> ropoctl, we don't need to fork. We just need documentation and a common goal.
	25 [22:13:05] <Morrighu> apparently the answer to that would NO
	25 [22:13:09] <ropoctl> no, we want a game that has free assets
	24 [22:13:11] <kalhaan> Some of them yes, but some other no
	25 [22:13:15] <Talad> daraknor: you will not have PvP without a world to support it
	25 [22:13:22] <shinobi> I want different worlds and want to be able to go from one to another ...
	25 [22:13:22] <Talad> and anyway we have PvP
	25 [22:13:30] <daraknor> Talad, yes and no. You seem fundamentally married to a particular "one world" concept
	25 [22:13:32] <Cayle> emoted PvP
	25 [22:13:37] <Morrighu> we don't want to be a PS clone
	25 [22:13:49] <Talad> ropoctl: free assets are a very bad idea
	25 [22:13:51] <Morrighu> we want our own rules, crafting, combat, etc
	25 [22:13:56] <daraknor> you have carebear pvp, I want war.
	25 [22:14:03] <Talad> no artist will give you assets with a free license
	25 [22:14:06] <Morrighu> others want the same
	25 [22:14:10] <Yorzian> I think that the problem is that PS is a *game
	24 [22:14:18] <kalhaan> Talad> I disagree
	25 [22:14:19] <shinobi> Right !nYorzian
	25 [22:14:29] <daraknor> Talad, I think creative commons was created to do just that.
	25 [22:14:33] <shinobi> ...
	25 [22:14:33] <ropoctl> then we'll find that out for ourselves
	25 [22:14:38] <Morrighu> it totally was
	25 [22:14:38] <shinobi> CC are not free licences
	25 [22:14:40] <Yorzian> * and not splited to have an engine from one part and the rest (art/content) on the other
	25 [22:14:40] <Talad> well, show me good assets using it
	25 [22:14:49] <Morrighu> and we have plans to obtain our own art
	25 [22:14:55] <valentin_> free asset is perhaps a bad idea for a world but it is a good idea to have a free asset repository for teams to start building upon
	25 [22:15:06] <Talad> worldforge
	25 [22:15:12] <Talad> a pile of crap
	25 [22:15:15] <Morrighu> we've got two professional artists on our team now, three if you count my husband
	25 [22:15:17] <Talad> they are going your way
	25 [22:15:22] <Talad> since 1998? or before
	25 [22:15:27] <Talad> produced nothing. zero
	25 [22:15:30] <daraknor> Talad, could you please answer my previous question regarding "What do you loose by documenting the engine?"
	25 [22:15:41] <Morrighu> still waiting for that myself
	25 [22:15:56] <Talad> daraknor: sorry for not answering. We try our best to document the engine
	25 [22:16:03] <daraknor> i played worldforge games before I knew about worldforge. They were buggy but had decent content. if they had a solid engine they would have been solid games.
	25 [22:16:06] <Cayle> <Talad> they are going your way? How are we to understand that comment?
	25 [22:16:32] <Talad> I meant that worlforge is trying to have a very open development
	25 [22:16:43] <Talad> making a platform to build games
	25 [22:16:47] <Talad> having art free
	25 [22:16:57] <Talad> they are the best result of that model
	25 [22:17:05] <Talad> and the result is very bad imo
	25 [22:17:18] <Talad> another example: Arianne
	25 [22:17:20] <ropoctl> is there any reason the results have to be bad?
	25 [22:17:24] <daraknor> I don't think people here are asking you to switch to that model Talad.
	25 [22:17:24] <Morrighu> not disagreeing with you but we've come up with a couple of other models
	25 [22:17:29] <valentin_> is it because of the model or because of worldforge project ?
	25 [22:17:32] <Talad> they wanted to make the tool to create mmorpgs
	25 [22:17:34] <Morrighu> and we're shopping for an engine
	25 [22:17:36] <grommashpl> his project costs 12 mln dollars
	25 [22:17:39] <Talad> they now have a pacman on the web site done!
	24 [22:17:44] <kalhaan> I think we could keep arguing on this for the whole night, but we need to move forward... Talad, do you agree on the middle way, meaning working on the PS engine, but as a common plateform to build other universes?
	25 [22:17:54] <daraknor> I think we are asking for permission to help you develop the engine further for both of our uses
	25 [22:18:11] <shinobi> what's wrong having a repository with free arts, models, rule sets ? you still can have your own proprietary content ...
	25 [22:18:14] <Talad> daraknor: I know, I'm just trying to give you my point of view. I'm very friendly :)
	25 [22:18:24] <Talad> I just strongly believe in PS
	25 [22:18:28] <Morrighu> so far, i'm not hearing a yes
	25 [22:18:29] <eterry> It sounds like most of us are not willing to join Planeshift, but are willing to work with them, avoid forking their engine, and contribute back.
	25 [22:18:35] <Morrighu> i'm hearing a recruting speech
	32 [22:18:40] !ndaraknor agrees with !neterry
	25 [22:18:46] <ropoctl> so whats the deal with this? http://rtfm.insomnia.org/~qg/planeshift. html
	32 [22:18:57] !nshinobi agrees with !neterry
	25 [22:19:06] <Morrighu> that's our plan
	25 [22:19:19] <Talad> ropoctl: having detractors is something you will learn if you start a real project
	25 [22:19:20] <Cayle> also agrees with eterry, but think delta3D does not sound so bad after all
	25 [22:19:32] <ropoctl> so it's true?
	25 [22:19:36] <daraknor> I'm *conditionally* willing to join planeshift... but some of the biggest things I want aren't in the game design.
	25 [22:19:41] <Talad> as soon as you get to the point of doing something good, there are few people going mad at you
	25 [22:19:46] <Talad> I consider that part of the game
	25 [22:19:57] <Talad> that page is completely wrong, but my word counts as his word
	25 [22:20:08] <Talad> unless you want to contact all other devs we have
	25 [22:20:13] <Talad> but that's pointless
	25 [22:20:13] <ropoctl> so who is the copyright assigned to? fsf or ps?
	25 [22:20:20] <Morrighu> so you are here recruiting and instead of being willing to discuss cross-pollination between projects
	25 [22:20:26] <Morrighu> all planning to use your engine
	25 [22:20:32] <Talad> the copyright is assigned to Atomic Blue, that is a non profit organization like FSF
	32 [22:20:33] kalhaan points !nTalad to his question, a few lines up in the history
	25 [22:20:53] <eterry> It's understandable that !nTalad wants to recruit. Everyone does.
	25 [22:21:06] <ropoctl> so in other words its not a Free project
	25 [22:21:08] <Morrighu> yes, but be open about it
	25 [22:21:08] <Talad> morrighu: well, my primary goal is recruting, yes
	25 [22:21:13] <Morrighu> not skeaky
	25 [22:21:14] <eterry> But I think !nTalad is saying that if we won't join him, he'll work with us. Is that right?
	25 [22:21:23] <Talad> I never been sneaky
	25 [22:21:40] <Yorzian> I agree, it's not a free project, and not really opensource either, far for "libre"
	25 [22:21:42] <Talad> if you look at my "why I'm here" above I think it's pretty clear
	25 [22:21:44] <Cayle> I hear "If we won''t join him, he'll write us off"
	25 [22:21:52] <valentin_> we are 2000 forum messages past that recruiting point, !ntalad ;)
	25 [22:21:52] <Talad> it's free for players
	25 [22:21:57] <Morrighu> that's definitely my impression
	25 [22:21:58] <Talad> and free for everyone to enjoy
	25 [22:22:03] <Cayle> free as in beer, not information
	25 [22:22:05] <Talad> and have open code
	25 [22:22:10] <Cayle> I prefer ther other variation
	25 [22:22:21] <Talad> that's it.
	25 [22:22:29] <Talad> not other free are in PS apart from the ones above
	25 [22:22:50] <eterry> Calm down, guys. We're here to get something done, not argue about who is freer.
	25 [22:23:00] <daraknor> he doesn't sounds like a detractor at all. he sounds like someone who didn't know that you would copyright his work.
	25 [22:23:02] <Talad> !nvalentin_ : I know, but I don't lose hope. world is full of failed projects
	25 [22:23:10] <Morrighu> he's either willing to allow the cross pollination or hes not
	25 [22:23:16] <Morrighu> and so far it seems that the answer is not
	25 [22:23:20] <Talad> we are winning, and I just want more people to approach the next steps
	25 [22:23:25] <eterry> Talad, will you help us avoid forking and contribute back to your project?
	25 [22:23:28] <ropoctl> so why dont you assign the copyright to fsf instead of your shell organization
	25 [22:23:42] <Talad> because the next steps are very tough, and are nothing compared to what we have now
	25 [22:23:55] <Talad> we need more people, more organization, more will, more time
	24 [22:24:04] <kalhaan> Talad, please, could you answer the question?
	25 [22:24:09] <Talad> yes
	25 [22:24:17] <Talad> *yes, I will answer
	25 [22:24:20] <daraknor> Who owns the copyright if new files are committed?
	25 [22:24:23] <valentin_> are you shure to get this more more will with a unique ruleset ?
	25 [22:24:53] <Talad> !nvalentin_ : rules are just a small problem, we can change them as we go if we want.
	25 [22:25:04] <Morrighu> not if they're hard coded into the engine
	25 [22:25:12] <Talad> do you imagine what does it mean to support 3000 concurrent players?
	25 [22:25:28] <Talad> we have today 20 new registrations each hour
	25 [22:25:38] <Morrighu> and how many come back a 2nd time
	25 [22:25:39] <Talad> everytime I think to that I go dizzy :)
	25 [22:25:43] <valentin_> lots of bandwidht ;)
	25 [22:25:46] <daraknor> Who owns the copyright if new files are committed?
	25 [22:25:48] <Talad> and that's nothing
	25 [22:25:56] <Talad> compared to what a real mmorpg has
	25 [22:26:20] <Talad> daraknor: I have the other question to asnwer first, or kahaan/eterry will kill me
	24 [22:26:42] <kalhaan> ;p
	25 [22:27:06] <Talad> I'm not willing to spend my time or time of our devs to support forks.
	25 [22:27:30] <Talad> because forks are in my view a waste of resources and detract from the objective to give players one working free mmorpg
	25 [22:27:43] <daraknor> forks only happen when the changes aren't committed.
	25 [22:27:45] <Talad> when we will have one working, I can then discuss about it
	25 [22:27:46] <ropoctl> the objective isn't one game though
	25 [22:27:46] <valentin_> the only one who talked about forks tonight is you , !ntalad
	25 [22:27:51] <Morrighu> we're not talking forks and I think you've come to realize that
	25 [22:27:53] <Talad> what I want to explain, is that I don't want MY game
	25 [22:27:57] <Talad> I want ONE game
	25 [22:28:03] <Morrighu> we're talkinga bout making changes you can roll back to your code base
	25 [22:28:20] <Talad> atm there is no good free mmorpg to play, and no team producing one with some chances to make it except us
	25 [22:28:22] <Morrighu> though in all seriousness, i cannot see us contributing code that atomic blue will end up owning
	25 [22:28:39] <valentin_> neither
	25 [22:28:43] <Morrighu> so that once it does become something decent you can take it closed source and tell the rest of us to pike off
	25 [22:28:49] <Talad> Morrighu: do you commit code that FSF owns?
	25 [22:29:00] <Yorzian> it's the problem, PS is *one* game, and I dream of seeing a single engine with as many content as people can create
	25 [22:29:13] <daraknor> Talad, you can freely commit GPL code that FSF owns.
	25 [22:29:21] <Talad> Yorzian: I also dreams driving a ferrari with 3 girls on it.
	25 [22:29:30] <Talad> but that's not possible now
	25 [22:29:40] <Talad> we have to work with feet on the ground
	25 [22:29:42] <daraknor> Talad, I don't want to play Planeshift. Why should I work on it?
	25 [22:29:44] <Yorzian> backseats on a ferrari ? :D
	25 [22:29:46] <Talad> step by step
	25 [22:29:53] <Morrighu> actually, no they don't
	25 [22:30:02] <Talad> daraknor: I never played it either
	25 [22:30:25] <Talad> daraknor: right, FSF can turn commercial the same way
	25 [22:30:27] <eterry> Talad, we're going to make many small worlds, but we can do it such a way that PS grows stronger.
	25 [22:30:34] <shinobi> Talad: you don't play Planetshift ???
	25 [22:30:38] <Talad> the fact you trust FSF and not atomic blue is just a matter of popularity
	25 [22:30:45] <Talad> shinobi: I have no time to play
	25 [22:30:53] <Morrighu> no, it's a matter of knowing the motives of the people involved
	25 [22:30:59] <Morrighu> you are a total stranger to me
	25 [22:31:13] <daraknor> Talad, it also involves a trust metric and stated motivation. FSF isn't talking about switching licenses.
	25 [22:31:14] <Morrighu> sorry, my mother told me not to trust strangers
	25 [22:31:15] <Talad> ok, I will just go on that for a short citation
	25 [22:31:21] <Talad> you know Richard Stallman, right?
	25 [22:31:27] <daraknor> Yeah, we hung out
	25 [22:31:31] <Talad> the GOD of everything free
	25 [22:31:51] <Talad> well, you know he is in the ryzom commerical board, right?